Read this: Guto Harri, James O Brien, Isabel Oakeshott on the Unite the Kingdom rally and the Charlie Kirk Shooting, Tim Davie

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you're dead to me with more fun and facts from history taking it too seriously Matilda what she going to do now she decides to take back some of the Jewels with her as well to me.

Not you.

Hi, I'm Katie razzall.

Hello.

This is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in a few minutes James O'Brien get a Harry and Isabel oakeshott will assess how the media is covering Donald Trump state visit and how it covered Tommy Robinson unite the kingdom rally at the weekend, but first of all we're going to hear from Tim Davie BBC director-general has been speaking at a royal television Society event in Cambridge and that.

Katie is which is what I'm on my own in the studio this week.

Ok tea now the BBC is always very careful as we know about picking the Moments when we hear from the director-general.

So why is it chosen today for the first time in 10 years and that is why we have been speaking to send Amy that is the media landscape has changed dramatically this conference is Renee conference for industry insiders an executive so think I guess you're the boss is rather than the people at the coalface.

You're holding the mic so as I've looked around the room and looked as we been having coffee that you're just a heads Of News operations for BBC iTV and sky there a boss is some of the Britain's biggest production company UK Head of YouTube Daryl hear the theme of this conference is growth.

So they're also big international investors here.

They were politicians to so we've got Nick Clegg former leader of the Lib

Panda obviously meta executive for a while at speaking he's speaking right now and then we got culture secretary Lisa Nandy coming soon, but it isn't all supposed to be entertaining as well as informative so we got David Tennant it'll be speaking later and in amongst the BBC director-general who spoke this morning about huge value the industry adds to both the economy and British culture and he didn't just speak to the event as a whole he also spoke to you during the lunch break great and good headed off to King's College here in Cambridge was delicious fish and potatoes, but no time for putting in coffee but Tim Davie delayed his lunch to talk to us on the meteor shower and I asked him first what his message is to his industry and wider I think the message is 2-ft firstly the UK should be incredibly proud of the price of interests and all the listeners know this you know we have a incredible success story bill.

Decades the creative Industries now.

I think it's a bit soft you know it's all about the Arts and Culture but it's actually 100000000000 contribution to the economy is now on the 8th growth sector so he said that so the first thing it's recognise that but the second thing is and these conferences when you get groups able to get there was get string in.

I think there is also a sense of how can we ensure that we get with big us players with the changes in the market with the online boom we seeing into the content.

How can I make sure quite frankly the UK the public service broadcasters plus all the commercial businesses for the UK continues to grow the lights not just the BBC that ITV channel for the BBC chairs.

Previously said you will face a moment of jeopardy.

You said this morning that during his conference you going to be calling for a series of target.

Actions to ensure the survival really all the sunny the future future of the UK's public service Media so what what would what? Are you asking for and I do think it's about your word for roasting is right you can continue for a long time managing decline but not want to do that.

I mean I'm fiercely patriotic about the UK creative industries in the Public Service Broadcasting the history.

We have intervened.

We said ok.

We will create the BBC we will ensure that we give prominence to ITV and channel 4 on your television through the channels decisions that say ok we're going to protect PSB I mean, where is actually I go right to the public through the government and yeah, we're all stakeholders in this, but it's been a deliberate choice to intervene.

It's been absolutely our predecessors saying we want to create this market.

I think there's the amazing things that has not restricted.

We got a great commercial sorry, so it's not win Lose It genuine is forget the cliche I winning when she get you grow an industry, but you got a thriving probably service broadcasters sector which not not only creating economic growth, but it's from a societal point of view boy do we need it right so in the future and that's it.

That's the question.

I think there's been a lot of consideration and the first thing is we need to ensure that we have the right prominence Republic service broadcasters.

We need to make sure and Ofcom the regular work on this really good recommendations.

I think as well as government we need to make sure we got clear plans in areas like digital transition.

We got to make sure that we've got the right tax regime which could be a little boring but actually if you've got the right tax incentives to attract production to the UK you got those interventions.

You and I work had an idea and we'll producing a drama with choose the UK we got great skills and got to go to listen to do in that but you know you have to be seeing this as a global we need to make sure we got probably find BBC and you'd expect me to say that but offering great value to every household.

We are here to serve but we need to be investing in public service does a list of things that say we've got to act with speed to protect the public service broadcasters and we will talk about it on the platform on the stage only a few minutes ago.

They need a big growth of YouTube of course play the BBC's already on YouTube successfully with glue and other shows we talked about that on the meteor shower before but is there a big barrier for much greater collaboration in the way you have to give up your intellectual property you go there because that's where the audience is our but equally you have to give something away definitely think that we're in an age where when you deliver public service value and the BBC's content.

You'll be going through third parties Plus in argon are own platforms like I play and that's systems got to work together so we absolutely need to be insuring the public service Media trusted news all the things we do is not trapped.

I think holy in you'll now watch the news at 6 half an hour.

We know the world is changing that will still be there for decades I think but insuring we're on YouTube working with you two person.

I'm talking to YouTube the most senior level to say ok, what's the right level of prominence for trusted news and they give you they have given a problem to make it worth it.

I think we are under a underestimate our ability to work together with them with strong in the UK we've got a voice in this and I can talk to you about ok.

If you if you care.

I think I do about if you were to look into a topic you get trusted news in the other things under Pindar whole system is.

We have and there is a there is a cost appropriately for being a public service broadcaster in terms of impartial news the news quality coverage.

I think so the platforms are interested in developing.

How they make sure they're building Trust with their audience if that's what you gonna do that.

We've got to be out there on public service platforms with the huge sums of money that in your big competitors are bringing in a really cash-rich.

These companies were there is Microsoft apple Netflix Google it might be how do you compete? I think is a very simple answer which is we don't try and beat them at their own game.

We do what we do brilliantly as the BBC and the Brits and then give an example.

They're not doing news.

I've been in Birmingham looking at what we doing any last week in to develop in the creative sector with locally based shows we do like local drama.

We like me.

This shows tell our story they're not always going to be commissioned by people who are you looking for that's gonna work Netflix made that is just what they'll do great great work and a great title and it's great news.

We got that driving sector but there are things we do as the BBC and I think is so precious they they set the standard and I will argue that shows why adolescence and other shows that coming through through British creatives diesel absolutely a direct link with the fat.

We got a strong ecosystem developing with PSB drama new writing introducing taking new music artist which do something different and that's incredibly valuable and then remember trusted news bring people together sports events.

I could go on.

I think we do something different investment you mentioned it this morning from Microsoft and others in.

AI in the UK 30 billion pounds, how do you view it is it a threat to the BBC anywhere in terms of where people might go for information or will there be employing all the best people and that mean we won't be able to find them fantastic music invest in the UK fantastic and you ask having data centre capability working with partnership on companies developing foundational tech critical resources sometimes to compete with that.

There's a whole different once you've got that power Computing power probably how do you create applications programming functions we can use for public service so I said he knows we go to the charts.

This is incredibly interesting areas like in education.

What are we going to do to ensure that? We give everyone world-class revision services educational training regardless of your background to the tutoring is not just for Rich children.

Bluntly.

We can build AI capabilities.

Do that we also need to partner with the Amazons the Microsoft we doing that we're talking to me all the time because we'll need help on Foundation of tech and the data centres that are coming so all these things together and it's part of this conference is about funding into the future and you're heading into charter renewal as you say and your main priority is securing the BBC's funding you've call for licence fee reform what would look like and I was actually really struck by James Harding former BBC News chief is McTaggart speech at the Edinburgh TV festival one of them teams effectively saying was that the BBC won't be record performers in power.

They don't appear to support a licence fee so are you concerned that whatever you start conversations about you're talking about now in terms of modernising the licence fee actually reform they may well, be the next government and they have a very different plan for you know what the BBC would look like it would also the BBC completely and might not even exist.

We're not to do with manifesto.

Action with positions on the BBC so there's no point second-guessing what I got to do is work.

Really hard to say ok.

What is the future for Public Service Broadcasting the BBC that's who is assessed with the BBC serving every family audiences, we're not there.

We're not perfect.

We're not there to just defending institution justify ourselves, because we're particularly special what we are there to do is give value.

They actually distinctive to every family and household in the UK that's what we need to do now with that in mind.

I think that the licence fee.

Is is a system at work incredibly still works.

It is still working.

It's doing well, but we're the BBC has said we are going to have to keep it with the BBC funding over time the key thing is we want this institution to continue to offer Public Service Broadcasting and all the value that brings and I think it's stretches even to national Security social cohesion all those top.

Going to play what we need to do going forward is reform the licence fee and I've talked about yet.

What does it cover who pays it? This is been fluid through charts at the moment if you're over 75 so early for me to say exactly and it's a government decision and the government are coming with this gets technical but the green paper later on this year.

That is if you like the formal starting point where we go ok.

Let's have a look at how the wood from the BBC what's critical is we need the resources to keep investing in the BBC and we've been in a period where over decades.

I don't think I'll be receiving probably find it but that has in the context of household budgets and making sure that we're all recognising the people under pressure to ask you about you.

PlayStation people will go to remember the issues of BBC documentary coverage of gods of the next testing issue, probably is Eurovision with countries including Spain and Ireland saying they won't participate if Israel does at the moment my understanding is your position is that the BBC will still be involved with what we doing very specifically on Eurovision is the European broadcasting Union house.

They are doing review on what is the right position in terms of entries to come from broadcasters, what insurances do they need and who can compete and let them do their work and then make a decision testing times for the first time I understand the BBC isn't sending politics live to the conference Caroline Dinenage and he said it's a surprising decision based on the 100 centre, Glastonbury I wonder whether you have a view on why is the engine out some specific decisions and what we cover.

Thinking where are you? No slacking in terms of full political coverage getting to every party conference covering all alignments of politics I mean yeah.

We also need to make sure that we reflecting a new landscape the this is a much more polarised political environment that is stretching for lower teeth, but I tell you one thing we have great journalists and they're day to providing partial coverage yslv meets an engine house Frank Lyons exact programming shape, but we're covering it fully reality as you know words matter how you keeping step with public Sympathy for example.

We saw a really organised by the far-right activist known as Tommy Robinson he's called far-right by many and BBC but the rally people seem to do or are they just protesters who care about immigration? I know the BBC does not call it far right.

I wondered how the

Firstly the tough decisions are being divisive The Newsroom if I if I have an eye roll which on radio doesn't work very well, but people were saying will your clean the hands of this lobby or you've got an agenda to appeal to this party unfortunately.

It's a bit more human than that and a bit more sensible because what we doing a detour teams will be wrestling with OK how do we what are the right adjectives here? How do we describe how to do it fairly and I do think that we got very conscious of you know you didn't deploy and far-right when it's not the right thing to do.

I think about that.

I have seen other outlets go after you know European politics labels mean thrown around which are not fair accurate and I think we're trying to keep Minds open not closing with impossible journalism.

Everyone has their

I'm in my inbox is flooding with people who have absolutely as you know the joys of this job ever had a view about our motivation.

I can tell you what the motivation is Izzy journalistic and it's about the truth with no agenda.

I would say I've been BBC quite a long time now.

I'm officially an old leg.

This is a time.

Where is it stuff because it's very polarised we've got weapons social media environments.

I need to tell the listeners that it is it is it is quite brought out there the BBC just need to calm mysterious course it won't be perfect when we make a mistake.

We apologise.

We love I'm very proud of what we doing and just want to sum up what your mission is your vision for the BBC over the next 10 years you talk about it be at the centre of public Life we are actually focus on being relevant to every listener and every household, so that we bring trusted a trusted source of information.

We put you through with no gender.

We have a vision where we bring homegrown story telling the story of us not just global storytelling.

That's really important thirdly.

I hope the BBC is some somewhere we bring people and that might be the women's rugby team or it might be a question time different views don't have to be your enemy and I think my vision is the BBC Radio force.net can increase our growers socially and economically and finally to do that.

We need to be highly innovative in terms of technology.

We haven't talked about the big Investments we're making a play the fastest growing long for Video on Demand service that and so we need to BBC that's not constrained by former if you want to use social media to get your news.

I don't want us to be so that's not where public service can operate we need to be where you want to be an

Rachel public service is relevant not not just dusty and lecturing people about how they get public service media and the BBC I'm excited but I think we needed Now more than ever and passion about it the BBC is absolutely critical to we are at this point in time.

So that was BBC director-general Tim Davie speaking to Katie at the Royal television Society event in Cambridge and listening to that interview with 3 guests who are joining is now on the media show commentator get her Harry former number 10 director of communications for Boris Johnson has also been GB news presenter and also a former BBC correspondent also in the Studio with me is LBC presenter James O'Brien and joining us on the line is political journalist and writer Isabel who is international editor for Talk TV all of you.

You're very welcome to the program and is not to unpick there with what Tim Tim Davie and Katie were discussing but that start with your impression.

Out and Davie makes the case for the BBC future get over start with you.

I think there's a compelling case to which I heard strong echoes of their that in a world where there is more diversity.

There's more power station.

There's an angry at the bait about everything people tend to pick the side and sort of shout at the other side of that the case for the BBC as a calm in partial certainly I'm part is an organisation that at least aiming to give you what they regard as objective truth and both sides of a contested story is strong and in a world where this fake news and you don't know what to believe and what not to the big brands that the BBC is like a few other Great British brands like the times do standouts.

I think like a piece of wood you hang onto the storm not drown and so there is a compelling case and he made it quite confidently there.

I'm not sure that the BBC news.

Is that confidence in general in the way?

The song that goes by this business these days, but there's certainly the case is there and it's a strong as ever and there's a phrase I jotted down that Tim Davie use he said the BBC is doing something different making the case that is offering something may not get in other areas of the media Isabel oakeshott.

Will you Persuaded by the case she makes well first of all I did Welcome what he had to say on the depiction of the protest at the weekend.

I thought he was quite compelling on that you know he took a very measured approach on it and said that that that the corporation wants to be fair and objective reality so that was quite reassuring to me.

I mean respectfully I did think it was a rather softball interview the BBC have made so many on for carers this year and and Katie didn't challenge him on any of those blonde is a mess.

There was some of the issues that you're referring to over the summer the media show us.

Multiple times in vigorous fashion said we have made the decision to protect Public Service Broadcasting and she did pick him up on that and actually I don't think we the electorate have I don't think that the public have been on the nest account the party political manifestos, and I don't I'm not aware of a party recently that has said they're going to a particular issue that section of the interview was about the prominent.

So when we turn on our TVs the public service broadcasters have prominent positions on the EPG on the electronic programming guide and the BBC public service Media been arguing that digital prominence in new forms is required to protect the profile that public service Media is is given before we get into that kind of detail that.

Brian what did you are you Persuaded by the case Tim Davie makes what parts of it in Cambridge Water and therefore? What were the pay-per-view event of you would be so and I've heard you cover a lot of the issues that Isabelle refers to on on this program.

We great weekend in Great depth, but I worry about the depiction of the BBC is offering an alternative to everybody else is off but there does seem to be a and decreasing reliance upon precisely the sort of arguments that the rest of us are in the business of providing and I've often felt that the BBC's role, should be more of a statistical or a factual balance to the exchange of opinions that dominates the rest of the media so I mean for example two opinions are not equal.

What matters most is a statistical evidence so with reference to the to the March on Saturday whatever you want to call it far right or not is I supposed to be possible depending on your definition of far right mind would be there.

Two people differently according to the colour of their skin then you're alright and all the speakers cold for that and the BBC should have the confidence if not to use the word and at least they know what they're definition of the word actually the people described because they concerned about changes in the Communities and the fact that they feel that doesn't make them extreme right no indeed blonde and then it can lead people to determine whether or not that criteria has been met with the director general of BBC being asked about that and we've had his answer to it.

Just clearing up though the BBC referred to Robinson a far-right didn't refer to the entire event.

I'm not as far as I know it's quite correct.

Let me ask you though in terms of the making of the case for the BBC future funding.

Are you persuaded that the BBC is is explaining to the whole country why it's appropriate for everyone to less or greater expense to to contribute if the BBC the institution that Tim Davie was describing then.

I would be more confident and I actually am so you introduce get her at the outset as a former director communications at Downing Street which will enable us to form of vague.

What is politics are likely to be away his loyalties are likely to lie and that's absolutely reasonable, but you haven't non-executive director on the BBC is also a former director of communications at Downing Street and who clearly exercise over editorial policy because he says that he doesn't that to me as somebody who is not a fully paid up member of the Tory movement makes me question is playing towards impartiality so based on that I use the BBC in its how it manifests itself Now is not matching what Tim Davie is described and objectivity should be the 1st.

Third priorities of the BBC and I'm saying too much argument too much opinion and arguably too much.

I'm obviously influenced editorial in terms of impartiality today.

We talked about it and then we talked about it has been one of the primary ways that the BBC sets itself apart from some areas of the media Isabel do you think the idea of impartiality has Tim Davie describes? It is relevant to the media environment that we are all operating in fields relevant to the way that people consume information and consume use Now more than ever in in a polarised Media landscape.

You know that doesn't mean they don't also want the polarised start from in a lot of people want to consume news it in a way that simply Echoes or reflects their own views, but that doesn't mean they don't also want to see what the you know what the impossible Theresa's and I think the problem for the BBC is it?

When again it's efforts to do that.

I found wanting I mean I myself of frequently highlighters mistakes made by so-called BBC verify you know which should be the ultimate exemplar of impartial balancing of fact vs.

Fiction and it time and again gets it wrong despite huge amount of resources couple of things to say first we don't have BBC News here to to respond to that and full disclosure my job.

I work within BBC verify, but I'm definitely not here.

Is it as spokesperson for it on media show the broader point about the BBC's execution of impartiality ghetto clearly its critique from a number of different directions, but you still go and just not a drag backwards, but I what I hate about the idea of verified not the content of it.

Is it implies that other BBC News is not fair.

I will see you said multiple times that for me but not as hide behind that but the BBC it's it's an animal girl.

It's when it has to do and it has to have the confidence to do that when it's criticise because the problem at the moment you see the hard drive Furious with a left when something happens then you'll see the left can equally Furious with a right both sides one of cancel the other side say something says not acceptable services and extremist and they don't see if they are mirror images of each other and the BBC is where I am I saying we're thinking you've got to have the confidence to say Tommy Robinson is far-right for the people on the martin.and like why some of the people sing the progress of rallies disgusting people but 90% I would imagine the people on on that match.

Just hate the idea of the slaughtering goes up every word of that.

I never quite sure who.

What I mean when they refer to the left as if it's some sort of amorphous blob of celebrating the shooting of Charlie left.

How can you help me a homogenous measurement of left wing people who believe in a Ferrero distribution of palpably of search and another point to make about the tip occasion of the people that were on the March the BBC should be to hit the numbers so to point out the immigration into this country is half in 2024 what it was in 2023 that the number of people having an asylum applications process currently being held in hotels is a fraction of what it was when Chris got home office minister.

So if that is truly your concern if the numbers are truly your concern why on earth.

Are you having these markers of the time when they're coming down further and faster than ever before but again we can have a discussion about we can have a discussion about the nature of the BBC's coverage.

I should have said once more that despite being a BBC journalist.

I'm not here to represent the BBC in this context however the numbers on immigration the net.

Does your describing James have been repeatedly reported by the BBC we can just hold in the context of immigration which is coming down rapidly that to me seems like really important context and it also speaks to get a point about the motivations of the people that if they honestly don't know that the thing they care so passionately about is in Reverse from the position.

That was inflicted on the country by the Tories then the BBC mission to inform perfectly well that the numbers are are falling but they are absolutely gargantuan and still a massive problem.

I mean they literally see boots over every single week, so it doesn't matter to the people on that March that the numbers are slightly less than they were last year has nothing to do with with boats and a lot of the stuff that you about on the state has nothing to do with small base the New Zealand preacher who called for all non Christian places of worship to be closed down including presumably synagogues Hindu temples and mosques that has nothing.

Small basin that even if you were to take that seriously it constitutes 46% of overall immigration figures I feel that this point I should mention that if you would like to see a Panorama on that migration.

There is one that made with the Panorama team on iPlayer at the moment and we should also mention given that were talking about immigration that the latest figures for small boats as of the 8th of September 30th 1189 for had crossed the Channel in 2025 the latest net migration overall net migration figures into the UK which are released in September put the figure as 431000 in 2024.

I got one more question before I definitely want to hear your thoughts on the coverage of the death of Charlie Kirk and it's about something that Katie alluded to in her interview that James Harding in his speech at the Edinburgh TV festival former head of BBC News at Edinburgh TV Festival

Protect the BBC from political interference and in his speech he referred to Reform and if we reform UK and if we look at its manifesto for the last election it describe the BBC as well and institutionally bias.

Do you think that the BBC News to engage with the possibility not saying it's going to happen, but the possibility that this party could be in power and some may have a very different view of what the BBC should be than the BBC does itself.

I think no-brainer for every public body and every private company to engage with somebody and potentially is going to be in power.

Yes, you start talking to them as soon as you can and and and one of the reasons for that is to make your case, but one is also to understand.

What is the true view of the people who are engaging with and getting over that sort of the demon eyes puppets and one thing I'd say but Nigel Farage she's not my cup of political coco or even pint of political bitter, but one thing about Nigel Farage at a time.

So-called mainstream politicians been shutting down debate I'm going into interviews peddling this nonsense.

There is not one interviewer in the UK the Nigel Farage was possibly to avoid his how to make his case hello communications respecting for that wears.

I have Isabelle do you think that the BBC for better or for worse needs to engage with the possibility that reform could be in power in some form in that it's view of the BBC is radically different to anything we heard from Labour Party

Play partner Richard Tice the deputy leader of reform.

Obviously there will be a new and different manifesto think it sounded a little bit complacent of play me to say that there's no point in second guessing manifestors.

I think there's every point from where the BBC sitting right now and from where a form is in the polls.

There is every point so you in second guessing.

It's not even a second guess.

I'm in a reform manifesto.

I'm pretty damn sure is going to say something pretty different about the BBC's future to what the other two so-called extreme parties are going to be saying well all three of you.

We talked about the BBC at length both with you and with Tim Davie in the remaining minutes of the program.

I do want to get your thoughts on a couple of other subjects first of all the The Killing of the Conservative commentator Charlie Kirk last week all of you.

I'm sure we'll have consumed huge amount of coverage and discussion about that event in Utah

What if your impressions being both of the media you're consuming but also how you covered it yourself, I didn't really know who he was prior to his murder.

Is is despicable murder a username and I knew that he was very popular in American conservative circles and I heard of Turning Point but I associated the most with the woman that is currently being sued by Brigitte macron for insisting that she's a man so I made a mistake of not thinking that they were serious operation so I was waiting to find out what he stood for so I looked at what he said and played out some of the clips of what he said and somehow ended up defending great admirer so the thing I take away from all of this is sympathy for his family condemnation of all political violence shock at the speed with which Donald Trump sought to use it to his own political and a complete about how someone fated as a champion of free speech could have their Legacy in anyway polluted by evidence of him exercising his right to free speech to the fact that you've been criticised for now.

Sufficiently sensitive in discussing the event with you that's not insensitive while stressing throughout that all forms of political violence in fact my mic radio on this entire subject is that you have to respond identically to political violence whether you agree or disagree with the victims or not that that should be just a given that should be the most obvious thing in the world and yet.

It isn't people on my side of the political while they were struggling with the idea that all forms of political violence are equally by Donald Trump didn't even mention the American politician who was assassinated earlier this year during his litany of examples of violence before any motivation for even been established Isabel let's bring you in.

Hope you felt that some parts of the media have been too quick to move towards broader discussions relating to the death of Charlie Kirk well, not in the immediate aftermath.

Talking about his death talking about the impact on on his family and everyone who knows him has been pretty reflective of the magnitude of an event and I suppose someone on the right.

I'm I'm quite satisfied that the media is covered it with such wall-to-wall pension course I agree with James that political violence should be treated equally whether or not you like what that person stood for otherwise we one thing I found very in different ways in which the American media is allowed to report on an event like this after somebody has been charged.

It's so different from our own me where I mean even now it used to be that once somebody had been charged.

That's the point at which you can't say much at all things have changed now and newspapers can say very Little Eva

It's been arrested and so is really interesting to see the extent to which that is different in the State Building in the status people are losing their jobs and their livelihoods for not having been sufficiently mournful or sufficiently respectful of a man whose life was apparently dedicated to championing free speech again.

It's a little bit bizarre about comments that we've seen from Jeremy Clarkson and from Mehdi Hassan Jeremy Clarkson said for the first time in my life.

I'm genuinely frightened about being a newspaper columnist Mehdi Hassan told Katie when she was presenting night that he did made him or fearful about his safety you all in very different ways Express strong opinions on a range of political issues has Charlie cooked.

Can you pause for thought us all paws for thought but again I think it's it's it's a freak event actually take out somebody who disagree with using a bullet is a very rare event but what we have seen others.

20 is is the erosion of the idea that people are entitled to their views even if you disagree with them.

We see top universities when supposedly intelligent thoughtful students, so people wouldn't buy them a pattern because they don't want to listen to what they have to say and so even though political violence is obviously worth and cancelling some underlying them a platform or slapping London to dismiss the views that they have it's part of the same outlet that the only thing you want to hear is something that reinforces your and Prejudice and that's something we got to get away from the right thing.

I learnt about Charlie I was he offered here an operation called professor watch and teacher watch which was literally dedicated to making lists of academic.

Who he felt worth.

It needs one of his biggest product campuses and you invite before professor, but I monster by James I'd like to hear your answer Andy

Answer to this question does didn't give you pause for thought if someone who goes on LBC every morning and Express is very strong opinions and often as Frank exchange of opinions and views with your listeners.

I think we can probably all agree that the real victim here is Jeremy Clarkson can't seems to be is impulsiveness space and that again with what's your answer that do you ever worry if you're walking street that someone might the statistics suggest that somebody with my politics is a lot more likely to be a victim of political violence and somebody from the right The Economist published the graph this week, which makes that in America in particular particularly clear, but I don't let myself worry because if I did I would lose my ability to speak truth to power.

What about you Isobel I didn't sleep that night not for myself, but I truly worry about politicians and what history recent history is tortoise is it's not necessarily the obvious targets.

I worry hugely for the safety of Nigel Farage of course worry for me.

But I worry for all MPs you know it's often.

I'm afraid tragically the ones that at least expected to be the targets that have lost their lives.

We knew this from David Amos was very very unassuming figure not high profile.

Not a household name likewise Jo Cox so I think it's a dangerous world out there for a but they got to continue doing what and get a you worked in number 10.

They would have been any number of discussions about safety would the tone of media coverage come into those discussions, I think the tone is it wise to reflect on what you say and how you say it and the more aggressive the argument the more it should be sugar coated with Manners and and some respect for the people who discreet with you forgotten how to do that incredibly unhelpful there in the world and get her described for some of the politicians that Isabel refers to attend a woman who literally called.

People to be burned alive in their beds in this country to enter some form of phokeer a woman who pleaded guilty to incite many I got welcome gone to the stage at the conference of the word you think there's an issue with within some media coverage probably James O'Brien Isabel oakeshott.

Thank you very much did next week.

We're going to be speaking to the Guardians editor Catherine has been the job for a decade but for now for me and from Katie and Cambridge goodbye, and I want to talk about Heroes what time is a child I imagined a heroic future for myself which I would achieve great things and I sacrifice my life for a noble cause before I was 30 but my experience is number less than 6 show me the was something deeply wrong with my idea of heroism from BBC Radio 4 my podcast the long history of terrorism explores ideas of what it meant to.

3 time who are the heroes we need today listen to Rory Stewart the long history of heroism first on BBC sounds.